You DISGUSTING LITTLE MAN- Best Katherine Wentworth Scenes From Dallas

She was my favorite BITCH on Dallas.

She had so much more potential. Written-out far too soon.

Great bitch character, and Morgan Brittany had such great hair. But she was a terrible actress.

The general caliber of acting on Dallas was lower than all the other '80s primetime soaps.

I wonder if she would have ended up as crazy had Rebecca not died? I also think J.R. fucking Katherine pushed her over the edge.

1983-84 was Katherine's season and I must say, she did bring some fresh energy to the show. By then, Sue Ellen was just puffy-looking and lusting after schoolboys.

Was Morgan written out because she got the lead in ABC's Glitter? I agree that she could have stuck around another year or two.

Katherine and Mark Graison might have made a good couple under other circumstances. I don't get the Bobby obsession at all. I don't even get what Pam saw in him. Give me Gary Ewing any day.

Morgan Brittany was a stunning, stunning woman, but you get the feeling she's not really acting playing a petulant, spoiled, nasty, narcissistic, cunning, soulless cooze.

Morgan Brittany was so pretty.

R3- I disagree. The acting, writing and directing on Dallas - at least in the early 1980's was FAR better than Dynasty.

This is a great Katherine Wentworth scene that's not on the above video.

There was always something slightly shrill and/or metallic about her acting. It was just as true during her child actor days as Suzanne Cupito.

I did like how Dallas started styling her like a 1940s film noir character.

Morgan Brittany is a right wing, Trump-loving cunt.

R10- HA

A lot of those scenes from my second video she has the 1940's hairstyle. I was going to comment about that but you did it before me.

[quote]The acting, writing and directing on Dallas - at least in the early 1980's was FAR better than Dynasty.

The writing and directing maybe, but (and it's broad strokes against all the soaps) not the acting.

Patrick Duffy, Victoria Principal, Linda Gray, Jim Davis, Charlene Tilton were all... passable. There were no Joan Van Arks or Stephanie Beachams among the Dallas cast. KNOTS had the best acting overall. Things were more variable on DYNASTY but it had some good casting. FALCON CREST had really interesting casting. All the actors (except Ana-Alicia) fit their roles perfectly. You really felt no one else could've played those people. On DALLAS I always felt they could easily have had different actors in all the core roles and it would still work.

You won't find me defending Linda Evans' acting. But Barbara Bel Geddes was even worse.

Absolutely killer hair in this scene!

Once you see BBG's acting tics, you can never unsee them. "Paaaam...."

VP's acting involves bugging out her eyes and not blinking. That's how we know Pam is angry! Fantastic body, though, I can see why straight men loved her.

Charlene... God bless her. I'd love to have a drink or smoke a bowl with her, but she never convinced me as Lucy. David Jacobs wanted Stepfanie Kramer of Hunter fame in the part. I'm not sure how that would have worked, either. Funny story: I once had a dream I was at some kind of soap star autograph show. Dee Dee Halls and I had coffee but when I said hello to Charlene, she ran away into the crowd. Get back here, Tilton!

Linda Gray... The autocomplete on my phone once changed her name to Linda Gravy (I text another friend who is also watching Dallas on Amazon) and the name stuck. Sue Ellen is fun to watch but shit, get me high sometime and I'll do my Sue Ellen impression.

The same autocomplete turned Larry Hagman into Larry Hangman. This reminds me of someone on a Falcon Crest thread whose grandma called Jane Wyman "Jean Wellman."

I agree that Joan Van Ark and Stephanie Beacham were MVPs of the 80s prime time soap genre. I'm also a fan of Julie Harris (although the writing sometimes did Lilimae no favors, cough, ahem, 1985-86), Margaret Ladd, and Ken Kercheval (before Cliff became bumbling comic relief having aged a decade between seasons).

Side story: in a "prior life," pre-Covid, I was an academic-ish type and taught a night class/elective in media history that I built around serialized TV. I created a game called Soap Opera Bingo, where the students got to play bingo based on various genre and story conventions. You couldn't win by yelling bingo; you had to yell "soap opera bingo!" We played to an episode of Knots Landing from the Ciji Dunne murder storyline.

[quote] Once you see BBG's acting tics, you can never unsee them. "Paaaam...."

So true. Taken from another thread:

[quote]I can see her playing every scene right now: the same affected chuckle, look down and sigh (even Katie Holmes would roll her eyes at that), the fiddling with her glasses, the look off into the distance to convey a deep-thought gravitas...

[quote] I agree that Joan Van Ark and Stephanie Beacham were MVPs of the 80s prime time soap genre. I'm also a fan of Julie Harris (although the writing sometimes did Lilimae no favors, cough, ahem, 1985-86), Margaret Ladd, and Ken Kercheval (before Cliff became bumbling comic relief having aged a decade between seasons).

I agree. A lot of the actors on FC, like Margaret Ladd, just felt [italic]real[/italic]. Who else could have played Emma? Anyone who did would've changed the feel of the character completely. But who else could have played Bobby on Dallas? Eh... anybody. I've Lorenzo Lamas' acting criticized on here before but he just worked as Lance.

[quote]FALCON CREST had really interesting casting. All the actors (except Ana-Alicia) fit their roles perfectly. You really felt no one else could've played those people.

The character of Katherine Wentworth had one major flaw: She was terribly one dimensional. She was never meant to be more. Imagine this: You're an heiress of a multi-million dollar conglomerate - on Dallas: And the only thing on your brain is how to grab that one guy. Nothing else. She lived in a hotel, had apparently no social life, never met up with other guys. All she was doing was scheming with squinting eyes and babysitting her nephew.

The infatuation with Bobby never made sense to me because it was never firmly established in the first place. At some point it was mentioned as established, but the clicking moment that did it for Katherine was never filmed as far as I remember.

I feel like Katherine imprinted on Bobby when he picked her up at the airport after Rebecca died. He drove her out to Southfork and Katherine commented on how lucky Pam was to have Bobby and Christopher. They seemed to reformulate Katherine when she returned in 1983. I liked her better in 1981-82 when she hated Cliff and resented him running Wentworth. She was right: he was embezzling!

Katherine (and the fight for Ewing Oil) gave the show some much needed juice when JR and Sue Ellen started to become a little repetitive.

She's a white ethnic fascist. I knew it when she did Dallas. She can go hump Trump for all I care!

R20, she'd probably enjoy that wayyyy too much, right?

Katherine was a nice antidote to her sanctimonious sister though. Pam needed some good cutting down.

After Donna became insufferable, they should've revisited Ray and Pam.

Oh yeah, Katherine Wentworth thread, Katherine Wentworth thread!

I remember when Morgan was on Melrose Place in the 90s, playing Patrick Muldoon's wife or ex-wife. She was the only one who died when Kimberly Shaw blew up the apartment complex. She spat at Jane: "Monochrome is out!"

R13 Barbara was better than Donna Reed, who was stilted and awkward as Miss Ellie.

R25- Donna Reed was a quite decent replacement for Barbara Bel Geddes but she was not the REAL Miss Ellie.

Which show is better, Dallas or Dynasty? I'm wondering which one I should buy and watch. Never watched them.

R27- I know I'm prejudiced but I strongly recommend Dallas over Dynasty. Start at the very beginning - 1978.

Season 1 of both were very different from what they became, and great dramatic TV. Dynasty went off the rails and Dallas got boring. If I could only take one to a desert Island, I'd take Dallas.

[quote] Patrick Duffy, Victoria Principal, Linda Gray, Jim Davis, Charlene Tilton were all... passable.

I agree with the above except for Linda Gray, who was quite excellent for soap opera acting. She did so much with just her eyes.

Charlene Tilton could be awful at dramatic acting, but she was hilarious when she had to deliver zingers at J.R. or Sue Ellen at the Southfork cocktail hour. She actually had fine comic timing.

Agree about Linda Gray. She made so much out of rather little in the writing. She was great when suffering and when bitchy. Best soap actor qualities.

R31- This episode was from about 1987?

Dallas SUCKED by that point. The show was at it's best in the early 1980's.

Yeah, it must have been 11th or 12th season. You can see that the cinematography by then was pretty bad, too. They saved money wherever they could. It all went downhill. This scene though was a little bit of a highlight though.

When I was a child and taped Knots Landing reruns off TNT, I blamed the cinematography cheapening on switching video tape brands! Damn you, Fuji!

When I rewatch any of the Lorimar soaps, I prefer to stop when the look changes. Part of that I love about them is the rich and cinematic look of the early seasons.

How beautiful did Dallas look in fall 1983 thanks to Bradford May?

Barbara Bel Geddes was the only prime time soap actor to win an Emmy

I thought Duffy and Principal were quite good in this scene

Katherine in R8's clip is Donald Trump when he gets squeezed out by the Republicans. He will burn them down, because "If I can't have Bobby, nobody can!!!"

This scene is from 1978. Victoria Principal's hair is beautiful. She is beautiful. By 1980 she would NEVER look this good again on the show.

^ Drunk Sue Ellen was the best!

Brittany has a terrible speaking vouce, she sounds like a teenage girl. A bitch character doesn't need much in terms of acting skill but a voice with some gravitas behind it is necessary.

[quote] Barbara Bel Geddes was the only prime time soap actor to win an Emmy

Which is a shame. So much good work was done on the '80s soaps and they gave it to that bag of tricks.

I agree Brittany and Katherine were one-note but somehow I loved her. I love a good villainess but, yes, the obsession with Bobby was weird because Bobby was kinda bland. I liked it better when Katherine schemed against Cliff and JR. They should have done more with that. Obsessing over Bobby was lame.

Dallas is far better than Dynasty. Dynasty is entertaining for sure but it gets tiring as the seasons go on. Dallas was pretty consistent for its first eight or nine seasons.

Linda Gray was excellent on the show. Victoria was good in the first season until they turned Pam into a simpering "I want a baby" trophy wife. I liked Pam again during the dream season when Pam got that fire back, but it was quickly extinguished.

I miss the Ewing Barbecues.

And let's pour one out for the best drunk to ever drunk on primetime.

BTW, Freevee has all 14 seasons of Dallas, and all 9 seasons of Falcon Crest for (wait for it) free.

That said (written?), Dallas season 1 was only 5 episodes, so those have been tacked onto the the beginning of Season 2, so Freevee lists seasons 2-14, but it's the complete series.

I was wondering who took over the role of resident bitch after Katherine had checked out. There was April for half a season before she was converted into Pam II. Then her sister Michelle. But Michelle wasn't that much of a schemer, more a brat, if I remember correctly. Leigh Taylor-Young was a schemer but not a bitch. So, I guess no-one followed into her foot steps?

R33- By 1985 every restaurant scene was at the Cattlemen’s Club. They did that to save money. I’ve been watching season 1984/85 and 1985/86 lately.

Earlier seasons the Cattlemen’s Club was more rough and tumble. By 1984 it was in some skyscraper.

R40 she won for the breast cancer storyline

I would have given statues to Hagman, Gray, Donna mills, and van ark

JVA would've been a deserving winner for the '84-'85 season.

After the dream season, they put the women on the backburner to restore male dominance. They really didn't follow up Katherine with a worthy bitch.

Isn't she a fat Trumper now?

Since we are talking about underdeveloped characters: Didn't we all feel a universal urge to slap Jenna Wade around every now and then? I'd say she was best when she appeared in the bar around Pam and Bobby's divorce. From there on she deteriorated to a whiny girl, deprecated to a mere plot device.

Mark Graison - I liked him when he was around. But it is astonishing how very little mileage they got out of the character. He had an oil firm that he inherited. But did he do anything with it? No family whatsoever, the poor guy. One time he was a hero, when he punched J.R. hard. And that was it.

Unsung hero: April Stevens. Received no love from the audience because she had to replace holy Pam. But she actually had more personality than Pam. She talked business and held her own against everyone, including J.R., a trait Pam lost right after the second season.

r51, I hated Jenna. She was such a plot device of a character, and her marriage to Ray made both characters insufferable (which not even Donna's worst did to him). When she first came back (as PBP), she had some kick to her (see attached scene, also featuring La Brittany cunting it up), but it quickly evaporated.

I second the love for April, though she lost a lot of her edge when she got with Bobby. They could have had much more mileage with Bobby struggling to deal with a girlfriend/wife who was a gray hat and capable of doing business with both him and JR (and who JR used to bang, which was always an issue for Bobby). It could have modernized the show heading into the 90s rather than insisting that the women be ornamental.

I think a large part of the Jenna problem is Priscilla's dreadful acting and whispery voice.

Also, Sue Ellen looks really butch in that clip at R52.

Francine Tacker was worse. Morgan Fairchild was the best Jenna.

Pricilla Presley was hands down the worst actress on the show. Jenna worked well as a spoiler for Bobby and Pam when PBP took on the role in 1983, and DALLAS got some great publicity for reintroducing Elvis' gorgeous young bride - all grown and up and blonde now - which made her somewhat interesting.

But it didn't last long. By the following season and the dumb murder trial involving her ex-husband, Jenna had worn out her welcome. Presley's wooden acting was far more noticeable when Jenna drove the plot. And eventually marrying her off to Ray - played by the worst actor on the show - was sheer laziness on the part of the writers.

Jenna should've been a one and done.

Francine Tacker felt like they just grabbed some woman at the airport and said "hey you, be Jenna!"

I just watched The Oil Baron's Ball episode the other day. I love that Cliff bit J.R. and Lucy later asks, "are you gonna bite him back?" Also, Sue Ellen looked butch AND puffy during this time. I hate the Peter Richards story. He comes across manipulative and creepy and he's unnecessarily cruel to the admittedly clueless Lucy. I'm gay and I would have been nicer to her, her Mickey (now THERE was a hot fellow) has just died and her selfish-ass parents are out in California and care more about Donna Mills and Doug Sheehan than they do her. Give the girl a break!

Can't stand Jenna but I hate Charlie even more. I groaned when she first appeared in the guise of Shalane McCall. I can't stand that child.

Overall, I think the reason Dallas was most least favorite of the four big eighties soaps was the actors. They weren't awful, save for Bel Geddes, but they were all pretty mediocre and in many cases just really bland. That said, I think people sometimes go a bit too hard on Miss Beaulieu-Presley (shouldn't that have put her first in the opening credits by the way?) because they assume she only got the job because of her former husband's, which may or may not be true.

Some of the supporting actors were a bit better though. William Smithers and Priscilla Pointer were better than any of the series regular I thought.

[quote] Francine Tacker felt like they just grabbed some woman at the airport and said "hey you, be Jenna!"

Everything considered I think she's probably the worse recast on an '80s soap. (Worse than Presley) At least with the other recasts you got a sense of what they were going for. How did they go from Morgan Fairchild to her? I guess they must've sensed their mistake though which is why they replaced her with Presley.

[quote]Overall, I think the reason Dallas was most least favorite of the four big eighties soaps was the actors.

Woops. I meant MY least favorite.

Morgan Fairchild is very good actress. She really got a chance to show up her chops on Falcon Crest in a way she never would have in Dallas.

Morgan was wasted on FC. They had another blonde lady then, the one who married Richard, and she was great.

I wish Morgan had continued as Jenna....Morgan was from Dallas in real life, and she had that vibe. She would have never been the cardboard Priscilla Presley was, and a Victoria Principal/Morgan Fairchild battle would have been memorable. Morgan said someone at Dallas didn't want her back, I figure Duffy must have hated her. I know Larry Hagman would have loved working with her.

Yes, Fairchild would've been much better than either of the Jennas acting against VP. Which the show really could've used by that point.

[quote]Morgan said someone at Dallas didn't want her back, I figure Duffy must have hated her. I

That must be it. She didn't really have a lot of screen time with anyone else.

Morgan Fairchild as a Texas ice-cold bitch batting Victoria Principal's Pam would have been SUBLIME - possibly more memorable than Alexis v. Krystal.

Alas...

R63- I remember her mostly for her appearance on the short lived Flamingo Road.

I assume Tacker and Presley were cast because the writers never considered Jenna as anything more than a love interest for Bobby (or because they didn't want actresses talented enough to overshadow the mains). The Dallas writers never mined the relationships between the women on the show. A Morgan/Victoria face-off would've been fun and probably seemed obvious to the writers on the other soaps.

The scenes between Jenna and Donna in the dream season were refreshing. It was actually strange to see a friendship between two women being portrayed on Dallas that was not about talking about men. It's was those kinds of scenes that added texture to Knots that Dallas never really had.

Although the women on Dallas were primarily doormats for the men, isn't that sort of reflective of Texas culture?

Morgan's always been busy and even still is today. She's worked in TV constantly yet never had one particularly long-running role. Her not wanting to return to Dallas suggests to me that she probably doesn't like to get tied to one thing for too long. She had VP are both Democrats, unlike some of the other Dallas cast...

[quote]Although the women on Dallas were primarily doormats for the men, isn't that sort of reflective of Texas culture?

But that they never even showed things like friendship felt more like the writers' narrative choice than what they thought the world they were depicting was like. Even Pam's business career story-lines usually found her just playing foil for Cliff.

I think the 'Bechdel Test' is stupid. But Dallas is probably the only time I thing it needs to be applied.

Over its lengthy run how many scenes can you think of in which two women talked about something other than a man?

The ONLY time DALLAS did right by its female characters was in the first half of the dream season, when David Paulsen of KNOTS LANDING took the helm.

Obviously, it didn't last, and that the following season opened with a table full of glum women at Southfork complaining about their men was proof positive that Hagman and Leonard Katzman were back in charge and operating under the woefully wrongheaded belief that viewers cared more about the show's men than the women>

It's no shock that Principal and Susan Howard were gone by season's end.

[quote] Over its lengthy run how many scenes can you think of in which two women talked about something other than a man?

I guess Miss Ellie was not talking about men all the time. But she talked about the well-being of her sons all the time, another female stereotype.

The first half of the dream season is actually one of my two favorite seasons, the other being the season where Bobby and JR duke it out for Ewing Oil (Jock's will). The dream season gave so many characters so much depth and relatable drama. Until the show totally flew off the handle in its second half.

R71- The show went on the air in 1978. We can't impose early 21st century sensibilities on the late 20th century.

^ I remember when Joan Collins was prancing around her role, selling Alexis as a feminist icon, and how she took what she wanted. She really just slept around to get what she wanted. Not that progressive really. Sounded just like an old-fashioned male opinion on what a self-sufficient woman would behave. But I agree, let's not measure by today's standards.

I loved the mastectomy Miss Ellie sl when she threw out all her low cut gowns that could show cleavage, when the always dressed Ellie like the Morton Salt girl. Y&R did a breast cancer story five years earlier that went on for months, and was truly informative.

I remember once reading a Morgan Brittany interview, and she said when she auditioned for the show in 1981 the writers hadn’t really defined Katherine-she was just Cliff and Pam’s sister. Katherine went to the Ewing Barbecue in season 5, shortly after first appearing on the show, and I think that’s when the writers first came up with the idea of Katherine having feelings for Bobby-he dances with her and she’s intrigued.

On another topic, I always thought Lucy should have been JR’s neglected daughter from a dead first wife instead of Gary and Val’s kid, it would have better tied her to the show.

R75 I was quite young when Jennifer Brooks developed breast cancer on YR, but it really stuck with me.

I remember reading once that Carol Lynley was the first choice for Val. That would have been a different dynamic.

R78 Carol Lynley is great, but it’s hard for me to imagine anyone being as brilliant as Joan Van Ark.

In defense of the later (not last) years, here is a clip with Sue Ellen during her conniving years. Loved her drunk and loved her here. She really took a turn to the worse in her last season after she sold Valentine and produced this pointless movie about J.R.

R31’s clip is my favorite scene from the 86-87 season. The Winger Tramp walks in bowlegged like she got fucked by a 12 inch cock right before she slithered into the room.

Mandy should have returned for Sue Ellen’s last season and started up an affair with JR, who just married Cally. Sue Ellen could have spent the remainder of the season manipulating Mandy to get her out of Dallas while teaching Cally how to be the perfect Ewing wife, because she did not want Mandy serving as stepmother to John Ross.

R79/BobTV, I loved watching JVA while she acted. She often did things with her hands, worked with a prop. With Joan, I always felt like I was watching theater. She may have been a perfectionist, but I think that care for quality is what makes her and Valene so compelling all these decades later. Val was one of the great TV characters.

Poor Val was incredibly popular at our house. We loved Abby, too, but we rooted for Val. Until she lost her accent and her mama and got that weird haircut in 1987.

R82- By 1987 all of the Knots Landing Broads had weird ( FUCKIN UGLY) hairstyles.

R51, I agree with you; April was fantastic.

I would have made her death more open ended; in the last few episodes, Bobby gets a mysterious call saying 'we have your wife; bring money.'

it's the cartel or Nick Toscani or who cares; it's someone and Bobby shows up to play hero and sees that the Mrs. Ewing they have captive is really PAM.

The only time I liked Jenna was when she selflessly gave up Bobby just before the dream season started.

When the dream was over, she was a weak sister was she was in the dream sequence.

Morgan would have been too strong; they didn't want an 'Abby'; they wanted someone soft and demur; that's what they go in Priscilla; actually, her first few months on the show were strong. Jenna was independent; she had Katherine's number from the beginning.

I liked Afton. Cliff had no idea what he had. Pretty and smart and very perceptive of others.

I love how they gave Jenna crazy lady music. They really give her the crazy cow treatment here.

She deserves it.

Bobby's return sent the show into the crapper.

Jenna pregnant with Bobby's son?

The show never should have killed Bobby off; they all could have left the room and JR gets some surgeon to try something radical and JR whisks Bobby off to a sanitarium or something; Have Bobby interrupt Mark and Pam's wedding in finale.

Better yet, have Mark and Pam marry, they go to Europe for honeymoon and Pam's alone, shopping while Mark takes a call; she sees Bobby. Freeze frame on Pam.

The women were all terrible mothers.

Miss Ellie- controlling, wanted everyone under the same roof but did nothing while JR Drove Sue Ellen to the bottle.

Sue Ellen-drank heavily during her pregnancy ; slept with her son’s barely legal guidance counselor; said vicious things about JR in front of John Ross.

Pam - abandoned Christopher after her car accident.

Rebecca-abandoned two of her children with a violent, murdering drunk (Digger); the one child she did raise ended up as a murderer.

Jenna-played stupid games with both of her children’s birth fathers, refusing to acknowledge paternity, then bringing strange men repeatedly into her children’s lives instead of getting therapy for her crazy annoying ass.

Patricia Shepherd (Sue Ellen and Kristin’s mother)-raised both of her daughters to be courtesans; when Sue Ellen and JR’s marriage started to fail she encouraged Kristin to fuck him, break them up and become the next Mrs. Ewing.

Donna was an ok mom. Val’s abandonment of Lucy made sense on Dallas, but then she didn’t bother to continue a relationship with Lucy on Knots Landing.

I always like the bumpers on Dallas. NO shows have that anymore.

Ok, watching the video at R87, we also have to talk about holy Bobby. So Jenna is in prison for the murder of Naldo. She tells him to forget her. And he does. He doesn't see her for weeks or months while she is in prison. Finally, she gets released. They celebrate at the Oil Barons Club, along with Lucy's wedding. Around that time Bobby fathered a child with her, Lucas. The next night he proposes to Pam. The morning after, after a good shower, he separates from Jenna.

Who does that?

I liked April too. She was the only interesting character in the later years. Sheree J. Wilson was very pretty. She did have good chemistry with Duffy.

I like Priscilla (she is brilliantly funny in the Naked Gun movies) but dull as Jenna. And, yes, I hated that brat of a daughter. Such a waste of $$ for the show and that little brat was kept on when the show was trimming its budget.

A creep, that's who.

On Knots, Gary went from fucking Abby to driving a trespassing Lilimae home to the cul-de-sac and then fucking Valene. He didn't even wash in between! He just pulled on a pair of pants and a peach v-neck sweater and went for it!

Priscilla Presley is such a bad actress she makes Charlene Tilton look like a master thespian.

Miss Ellie needed to smack the shit out of Jenna when she started crying and whining and emoting.

Linda Gray and Susan Howard were the best actresses on the show.

[quote] Over its lengthy run how many scenes can you think of in which two women talked about something other than a man?

There was that one episode where Miss Ellie and her sister-in-law Jessica, Lady Montford discussed starting a feminist newslette and going braless.

Ciji's mullet is what made Knots' ratings skyrocket!

The interview I mentioned….Morgan seems a little full of shit. I don’t think she was up for Officer and a Gentleman and gave it up for Dallas.

[quote]On Knots, Gary went from fucking Abby to driving a trespassing Lilimae home to the cul-de-sac and then fucking Valene. He didn't even wash in between! He just pulled on a pair of pants and a peach v-neck sweater and went for it!

I loved that! The intense awkwardness between Gary and Lilimae as his relationship with Abby escalated was so real. Dallas never managed to convey the kind of real-life relationship that way. Characters only ever existed for the plot. All those Ewing dinners with things like Ray dating Bobby's wife, Ray marrying Bobby's ex, Pam and Jenna both being married to the same man, Ray sleeping with his niece. How weird those things would've been in real-life never came through onscreen.

I thought that Alex Ward who almost has an affair with Pamela in the 1981/82 season was really handsome.

One of the few GAY moments on Dallas. This is from a very early episode 1978.

That scene is with Lucy and Kit is well done, especially for 1978.

Sue Ellen Sleeps With Ray Krebbs ?!

I never knew that occurred.

I forgot Donna slept with Cliff Barnes.

I think they did every possible heterosexual encounter between the main middle-aged characters except Bobby/Sue-Ellen and JR/Pam.

Yes r104, and that is only episode that season where we see JR and Sue Ellen have sex. In the following episode, the Cliff/Sue Ellen begins.

So Ray could be John Ross’ father.

They never mentioned Ray and Sue Ellen fucking. Ray fucked every woman in the family except Miss Ellie and Val.

Ray even fucked his niece Lucy, which was incest (even though they didn't know he was Jock's son at the time). After they broke up, it was never discussed again.

R107- In the very early seasons 1978 to 1979 Bobby was really the only so called good person. Even Ray was no fuckin good.

Ray the Cad was kind of hot. I missed the early years and remember more whe he was kind of drip paired with Donna or Jenna.

It was years before I knew Ray and Sue Ellen fucked because TNN used to slice and dice the Dallas reruns, cutting scenes. They basically eliminated it from that episode.

If Sue Ellen could have fucked Bobby and had any real opportunity, she would have. She was hungry for him.

Has anyone ever looked at Suzy Kalter's The Complete Book of Dallas? I checked it out from the library in seventh grade and kept it forever. Eventually, I found a copy in a used bookstore, along with Laura Van Wormer's Knots Landing: The Saga of Seaview Circle. I still have both.

R102 I never watched the Dallas reboot other than the first episode or two (and I just couldn't, it was dreadful IMO)--did it have any gay characters? It would've been interesting if they made John Ross gay, just to see how JR and Sue Ellen would've dealt with it.

That episode from r102 was really quite touching and surprising for the time and for Dallas. And then they never really dealt with any characters after that (I didn't watch the reboot so I could be wrong).

I thought Ray was hot in the first few seasons, and then he became an "aw shucks" kind of character. Rather self-righteous and moralistic. He was more fun as a cad. Both Pam and Ray had more grit in the first season. Sue Ellen at least got some character development throughout the years, although her going back to JR was foolish. But we wouldn't have had good stories if she hadn't gone back to him.

I could believe Sue Ellen would go back to JR, but I felt they did it too quickly. All the drama with the Southern Cross and the divorce and custody and then a month later, she's back on Southfork, hanging out. It just made her look like a half-wit. She had three suckers on the line: J.R., Cliff, and Clayton (Dusty had returned to the rodeo). That 1981-82 season was kind of a mess, 1982-83 and 1983-84 were a big improvement. I recall 1984-85 was the season it began to show its age. I've never seen the Dream Season and am sort of looking forward to that. I'm not looking forward to the later seasons, but I am determined to go all the way through. I already know what happens, so spoilers mean nothing to me, I'm just curious to see how they "do" it and how the show deteriorates over time.

I loved the Bobby vs. JR battle for Ewing Oil with Holly Harwood (love that name) thrown into the mix. The scene where Sue Ellen finds JR in bed with Holly is one of the best scenes of the show. The build-up and sound editing were very effective.

Sue Ellen's hair, though, was tragic.

R115- Up until 1982 Sue Ellen had a pretty hairstyle 💇‍♀️. At the start of the 1982/83 season she changed it into a much shorter PUNKY - ISH style that looked HORRIBLE. She kept that HORRIBLE style for years.

I loved Holly Harwood. Her character was somewhat a pre-April Steven's Basically a good person but totally capable to hold her own when cornered. There was this one scene with her, Bobby and Katherine. Katherine was all overdressed as usual and happy to finally be on a date with "her" man. (Of course Bobby had no idea that they were on a date.) And then there came Holly. She had such an easy rapport with Bobby without even trying, and Katherine could only sit there and watch those two having easy going fun. Holly noticed Katherine seething and just didn't care.

That was a perfect soap scene, and I regretteted that we didn't get to see more of Holly. I read several times that Lois Chile's wasn't a very good actress. But on Dallas I always found her extremely effective. That scene with Katherine and Bobby was full of subtext, and she got it all out. She was good.

Another scene about THAT Mainwaring boy.

I'm listening to the Queers and Soaps podcast do their Knots Landing rewatch and I always wonder if one or more of those glorious guys posts on here. They were just referring to Linda Gray's abrupt hairstyle change between 1981-82 and 1982-83.

R91, I think Bobby saw it as two different things -- freeing Jenna and not wanting to commit to her; would she really want to hear while despondent and behind bars 'oh, I love Pam, sorry.'

DALLAS fans waited for years for Pam and Bobby to get back together; Pam found out that Bobby had been given a faux letter by Katherine asking for a split; she didn't reveal to Bobby that until later ...I think he was blind at the time... then the whole Naldo thing happened.

Bobby would have been a cad if he'd let Jenna rot in jail; he got her out at great considerable effort and cost. I thought Presley's best acting was in Swansong when she saw that Bobby didn't love her anymore; she said I don't think our getting married is the right thing anymore...

they should have written Jenna and Jack off together; she gets a Ewing and no, don't have her carry Bobby's baby; Pam asking Jenna to give up her baby ruined Pam in many ways.

Pam, Donna and Sue Ellen had great storylines in the dream season. Pam was the strongest she had been in years and Sue Ellen finally gave up the bottle.

All of that was tossed out with the shower sequence. Pam became a sniveling wimp and Donna was isolated from the cast. I would imagine it led to both actresses leaving thr show.

If Pam had to leave, Bobby should have been put together with Donna, his longtime friend. But she was age appropriate and that didn’t work in the final years of Dallas.

I was so blind to being happy that Bobby was back I couldn't see the oil wells for the Southfork.

The writing was much better in the dream season than the one in which Bobby came back.

They should have done it where Bobby flatlines and then everyone leaves; JR goes missing for a bit.

Reveal that JR has Bobby in a coma in a sanitarium; he may not know right away he was alive but he finds out later.

Finale: Pam and Mark on vacation in Paris for their honeymoon; Mark has to take a meeting. Pam's like oh, that's fine honey, I'll go shopping and you're not the love of my life anyway. She's out shopping and sees Bobby across a crowded way.

Freeze frame on Pam.

R122- I liked that Ray and Donna got close again. I think we would have been better off if Bobby did not come back. I did not mind Mark Graison being in Pam's life and being a father to Christopher.

One of the worst things about Bobby's resuscitation was that Pam was made to move back to Southfork, which made zero sense. She had fought to get away from the place for years, so why would she ever agree to that? The Dream Season Pam - so strong and confident - would never have done that.

R124- If Patrick Duffy had not returned to Dallas then the so called dream sequence would have become the permanent show- which would have been a good thing.

I like the scene where Neo Noir garbed Katherine goes to some library to search microfilm for past articles about Jenna. She's so incongruous, it's hard to imagine her in this mundane setting.

That scene with Katherine in the library really takes me back to when that's how we used to find stuff.

She was snooty with the library worker, I recall; 'bitch, I'm a TV journalist; I know how this shit works. Go away."

Travila did the costumes on Dallas for a few seasons, wmd his attempt to make the Ewing women look like Dynasty characters was over the top.

Sue wore this to go to the mall and movies with Pam.

[quote] If Patrick Duffy had not returned to Dallas then the so called dream sequence would have become the permanent show- which would have been a good thing.

I don't know about that. I'm sure even if Duffy didn't return that Hagman would have had Katzman back and they would have returned the show to a male-dominated show as they did in 1986. I think Hagman, like Katzman, didn't like the fact that the women were dominating the show. I also think Hagman didn't like the fact that JR had softened in the dream season. If you recall, by the end of the season, JR and Sue Ellen had reunited and were very lovey-dovey with each other. I think JR even told Sue Ellen he loved her in the season finale, which is not something you'd normally hear JR tell her LOL

It's too bad Duffy returned because I would have loved to have seen how the show would have continued. Apparently Sue Ellen was going to be in a wheelchair and blame JR for her accident.

I can't watch the show after the dream season. It doesn't feel like Dallas, even with Bobby back. It's ridiculous to expect your audience to just wipe away an entire year of stories.

The Dallas and Knots Landing ladies were jealous of the Dynasty gals and their Nolan Miller outfits. Michele Lee insisted on her character getting a career out of the cul de sac so she could wear designer digs. She looked ridiculous. Valene was supposed to be a world famous author, so Joan Van Ark's character still lived in KL, but the hideous clothes (and hairstyles) they gave her diminished her character.

R130- Knots Landing was so much better when it first premiered and the characters were just middle class suburbanites.

What about me??? I go from being stuck on some tropical isle to being JR's common stenographer!!

From this thread I take it, we're ready for another sequel? I'd be. If they do it right. There's a high bar to pass. Legacy actor are probably too old for a regular series by now. They could still be available for cameos. Might be a good thing. I thought the legacy actors were great in the 2012 sequel (bogged down by lousy writing) but they left very little breathing room for the new generation to shine. Let's John Ross be the good guy now, and menacing Lucas claiming his birth right.

So many blown opportunities in the first one.

They could have brought on so many more folks for cameos, short runs, etc.

Lucas Wade. Margaret Krebbs. Marilee Stone.

There were a few bright spots, but....I never feel compelled it watch the revival like I do the original seasons 1 -9

I'm to season 11. It's almost completely UNwatchable.

I have another Amazon window opened to season 4. It's so well written, acted and directed then. Dallas was definitely at it's best back in the early 1980's. I'm watching the episodes of around the time Lucille marries the good looking blond bland Mitch Cooper. I'm 100 % GAY but I'm more impressed with his sister Afton's looks than Mitch. She was such a sex kitten when she first appeared on Dallas.

R136, Afton stole many a gay boy's heart away.

The writing for Mitch was ridiculous; even after Lucy started earning her own money as MISS YOUNG DALLAS! he had a problem.

Modeling pays. Mitch couldn't handle it.

R137- Mitch Cooper had a constant chip on his shoulder.

Mitch should have been a sleazy up and coming protege of JR instead of a scolding moralist. It would have tied Lucy into Ewing Oil more and could have set up years of storyline.

they had an idea with Mitch to give her a poor boy but the most interesting thing about Mitch was his sister.

I will say I met Leigh M at an industry event and was charismatic and charming.

There is something addictive about that show. The acting was annoying at times but it was so exaggerated which added to the entertainment value in a way. There were a lot of people on that show, maybe keeping track of them all was a version of mindfulness back in the day. The actor Patrick Duffy that used to be in the show about swimming (can’t remember the shows name) was a gorgeous individual.

[quote] Morgan Fairchild as a Texas ice-cold bitch batting Victoria Principal's Pam would have been SUBLIME - possibly more memorable than Alexis v. Krystal.

Indeed

Tina Louise and Morgan Fairchild should both have had long standing roles on Dallas. Julie was supposedly the one woman JR truly loved, and killing her off early was stupid. Morgan as Jenna would rivalled Joan Collins and Donna Mills as Bitch Goddess. It was all there, and if it's to be believed, Duffy killed it because he didn't like Fairchild. Almost as stupid as his leaving, and coming back in the shower. Screw you Patrick Duffy!!

[quote] Duffy killed it because he didn't like Fairchild.

Is that a credible rumor though? Fairchild was on Dallas in it's first full or second season? I doubt Duffy had the standing back then to make any demands. I could rather see that producers saw a lack of chemistry. Jenna was just planned to be a one-time distraction with no real idea what the character should be. (Actually, they NEVER had an idea what the character should be. Once she was a permanent character she turned from self-sufficient single mom to insufferable resident-victim and never recovered.)

Why was Fern Fitzgerald not a bigger star? I only know her from Dallas, so I cannot say much about her range. But since she was excellent on Dallas, you would think some daily soap would have snatched her up. She certainly had the looks and charisma. Was she a Hollywood wife who didn't need the work? Her filmography on Wikipedia is not very extensive and has its last entry in 1996 (on Seinfeld).

Fern Fitzgerald was younger than Linda Gray, but Marilee always seemed like an old whore.

I love her first appearances, before she takes over the business after her husband dies. She is such a nasty gossip and a great frenemy to Sue Ellen.

In 1964, she played a blind girl in "The Outer Limits" under her real name, Suzanne Cupito.

R139- Instead of bedding Afton- JR should have bedded Mitch

I am re-watching the original show right now and have reached the three last seasons. So we finally have left Jenna Wade behind. Carter McKay bought Ray's ranch and causes trouble to Southfork. Love Carter McKay. Well written multi-facetted character right from the start and played very well.

J.R. goes camping, beds a young girl, goes to jail for it and marries her. The whole story line doesn't just look out of place (because J.R. is a total spineless victim), but it's also awfully plotted.

Question: It sounds pretty outlandish that local jurisdiction convicts a guy for having sex with a single woman. Was that still a thing back in the 80s, even if just in some obscure countryside?

In other news: You know that Linda Gray is being written out of the show because all of a sudden her make up makes her look old and haggard.

Lucy should have gone to Knots Landing. It made no sense that she never had further contact with her parents after 1979.

Vain Joan Van Ark wanted NO mention of Lucy on KL. JVA admitted that.

Wow! Carly Simon should write a song about her.

David Jacobs, too, said that Lucy would have been too boogie for the people of Knots Landing and probably would not have been a good fit.

Gary and Val DID return to DALLAS for Lucy's first wedding, so there was *some* contact, but it's beggars belief that Lucy wouldn't be involved in her mother's disappearance (when Val fled to TN as Verna), the "deaths" of her twin siblings, Val's later kidnapping, etc.

KL blew a couple of great opportunities like that - seeing Lucy interact with her grandmother, Lilliemae, and having rival mothers-in-law Lilliemae and Miss Ellie in the same scene. Julie Harris and Barbara Bel Geddes would surely have knocked it out of the park.

I remember an episode when Karen and Val were talking after Diane left the show and their mother-daughter relationship was pretty much in ruins. Val was trying to cheer her up by saying they would reconnect and then when asked admitted she never had contact with Lucy.

[quote] Lucy should have gone to Knots Landing. It made no sense that she never had further contact with her parents after 1979.

Lucy would not have fit in with that crowd.

Frank Fontana did the right thing.

That Val's Babies story was soap plotting at its best. I loved it how all plot strains of the season ultimately culminated into one major resolve. The stories around Jock's will were similar. All the motivations were so clear and obvious, none of them far fetched to do the most outrageous things. So compelling. Those were good soap times.

Valene can make the coffee herself.

They didn't know how to write Mitch and Lucy after the wedding; he didn't budge an inch over her earning her own money.

Evelyn Michaelson and Roger were cliches. Mitch was one of the most beautiful men I'd ever seen.

That said, I think Lucy had the best chemistry with Mickey Trotter. It's too bad the show cut their losses with him.

R163- That DUMPY photographer had NO sex appeal at all.

So what was Katherine's game in 1987? We see her disguised as a nurse and acting all crazy, telling Pam that everything she had will now be hers. Yet in the next episode she claims to have changed and disappears. Was it just a red herring for Pam leaving? Did Morgan come back and piss them off on Day 1? It felt like they reworked it very abruply.

I'm watching 1987-88 for the first time since it first aired and the Pam mummy is as bad if not worse than I had remembered.

Yeah, that was puzzling. First, they set it all up like she is coming back to reclaim her man. Then she meets Bobby, Bobby tells her to leave, and she just says "OK", and she leaves. It was quite lame to say the least.

This and the next seasons had a lot of set ups that ultimately were retracted and didn't go anywhere. In the same season J.R. wants to divorce Sue Ellen because marrying Kimberly Cryder would get him influence in Weststar and eventually get him Ewing Oil back. This goes on for half a season until the marriage plan is abandoned and he just tries to get stocks. Why the marriage idea was no longer followed is not clear. At the end he is outsmarted by Kimberly and Sue Ellen and doesn't become president of Weststar. So he is embarrassed and fails. But it doesn't matter because he can force Jeremy Wendell to return Ewing Oil assets pretty much based on a co-incident. The trick on Wendell was pretty simple and the regain of the assets completely unearned. It was done in half an episode. The story line could have been very compelling but it also very poorly executed.

The first nine seasons of DALLAS were must-see, incredible TV.

The last five seasons were awful; it was like watching Survivor; first Pam and Donna get voted off; then Jenna (meh), then Ray, then Sue Ellen, then Miss Ellie.

Clayton stayed but he was never really family.

The last season should have been a blow out bringing back past favorites; when Lucy was first written out, she got the best possible exit -- reunited with Mitch, handsome doctor who got over his money issues.

They should have had a political issue bring Donna back to Dallas or maybe Margaret had a health issue (she gets better). JR outfoxes the cartel and Cliff one last time to get control of Ewing Oil. April never should have been killed off; but she gets kidnapped. Bobby gets word from kidnappers: come to this location with 10 million to get your wife back. He shows up with the money and sees PAM!

She comes back to Southfork as does Sue Ellen. JR walks in...flummoxed that Pam and Bobby are back together. Miss Ellie comes home too.

Would that have been so hard?

^ I think that COULD have been an option if they had known that the series was ending. From what I read, they had the writing on the wall for the entire season, but never a definite word. I think they got the official message within the last two weeks of filming. But you are right, if they had known that this was the end, they should have tied up a lot more lose ends.

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